For 14 years, Tony Rizzo has entertained audiences with The Really Big Show on ESPN Cleveland and for decades, he’s been a sports media star in The Land.
“A star who draws attention and brings it every day on-air, but he’s also a great team player,” newly appointed ESPN Cleveland PD Matt Fishman said of the 59-year old Rizzo. “The great thing about Tony is that he cares about everyone here. He knows everybody on the team and their families, whether they’re in sales, marketing or an intern.”
Creativity, a willingness to adapt, build and grow a community has seen ESPN Cleveland’s midday show morph from what started as Rizz On The Radio into The Really Big Show we hear today. It has the sound of a drive time radio show, with characters, bits and intricacies, but because of Rizzo’s TV schedule, it launched and has remained in middays since 2007.
“If we had this conversation 15 years ago, I would have said we need RBS in afternoon drive,” Fishman said. “But with the app, smart speakers, our TheLandOnDemand.com website, people find what they want to listen to no matter what time of day it is.”
The Really Big Show wasn’t the plan in 2007 when Good Karma hired Rizzo and paired him with Aaron Goldhammer, a radio producer from Wisconsin. But that’s because the plan was not to be contrived by the traditional sports talk format.
“The biggest stroke of luck in my career is that I got a chance to work with Rizz,” Goldhammer told me.
The best depiction of Rizzo as one of Cleveland’s premier sports voices came from Ohio native and ESPN NBA Insider Brian Windhorst.
“For years when Rizzo hosted the Browns postgame show, no matter where I was in the country I always turned on my ESPN App and wanted to hear what he had to say. Sometimes I turned it on too early and just waited until he came on the air,” Windhorst said. “As someone who doesn’t live in Ohio anymore, only really follows the Browns out of morbid curiosity than actual fandom and works in the sports business where I turn down 5-10 radio shows a day, that I made that a priority is the best thing I can say about Tony and his influence.”
Before I spoke with Rizzo, I kept hearing how he doesn’t do interviews and I was even met with surprise that he agreed to do this one. Usually, it’s easy to find past interviews featuring on-air personalities because let’s face it – many radio hosts enjoy talking about themselves. I told Rizzo this at the start of our conversation and he admitted with a chuckle, that he doesn’t do many interviews.
Brandon Contes: I tuned into the show the other day and within seconds, I hear you telling a story from FOX 8, when you had to do a last minute interview with who you thought was an assistant football coach for Ohio State, but a couple questions in, you found out he was actually the new basketball coach.
Tony Rizzo: It was Thad Motta [Laughs].
BC: I don’t want to make the same mistake with you, so can I have some background?
TR: I’m a native Clevelander, I went to school here at Ohio University and started my career in 1986. I was lucky, my dad was a broadcast Hall-of-Famer in Northeast Ohio – Jack Reynolds.
He did radio and TV locally and then went to work for Vince McMahon and the WWF in the ‘80s, so we were big sports fans and had a broadcasting background growing up. He worked with Jesse ‘The Body’ Ventura, I was able to hang out with Andre the Giant and Hulk Hogan. I had a really charmed childhood and it prepared me for this business.
BC: Did you know you wanted to be a sportscaster and follow in your dad’s footsteps from a young age?
TR: I didn’t. I actually went to Ohio State to be a dentist, but that lasted two semesters before I came home and realized my calling was broadcasting.
BC: Were you a big wrestling fan?
TR: I was a huge wrestling fan, but my biggest passion was the Browns. My dad grew up in the ‘50s when the Browns ruled the NFL. We were born and raised Browns, Cavs and Indians fans. One of my first childhood memories was going to the old Cleveland Stadium and watching the Indians at five or six years old.
BC: Your broadcasting career started in 1986, was that TV or radio?
TR: I started with an AM station called WBBG as the overnight board op. At that time, the FM affiliate was WMJI and they hired John Lanigan, a big star in Cleveland who replaced Don Imus here in the ‘70s. They didn’t do a lot of sports, but they did news every half hour. The Browns were expected to be good in ’86, so that summer I said ‘let me go get you guys some interviews.’
Lanigan’s news director, John Webster wasn’t sure about it, but he ended up sending me to Browns training camp at Lakeland Community College. They used the sound on-air and I finagled my way on the show. I worked for free for a year, getting sound for the Browns and doing a couple of sportscasts, but that’s how I broke into this business. My dad helped me a lot, but I also owe Lanigan plenty. He taught me how to sell, how to be entertaining, informative and I can’t compliment him enough.
BC: Did you listen to a lot of radio growing up in Cleveland? Pete Franklin?
TR: I did, I listened to Pete Franklin, my dad even worked at the same station as him. My dad was a disc jockey there, he also did a movie show for channel 83.
BC: And now your son also followed the same path and is working for ESPN Cleveland?
TR: What a treat for me to have Michael here, we actually got to do an NCAA Tournament game together. We did one of the MAC Championship games down at the Q, and working with my son was one of the biggest thrills of my career.
BC: When did you get started at FOX 8?
TR: I did Lanigan’s show and then went part time to FOX 8 working a show called the Sunday Sports Page. We were fortunate to do very well and won multiple Emmy awards. I also did sports talk around ’93 – ’94 for an AM station, WHK. They called me and said, ‘we have a new sports talk radio format. Do you think you can do it?’
I was young and of course said absolutely, even though I had no idea how to do sports talk. I actually got cassette tapes of Mike and the Mad Dog, I listened and formulated my own show. From there, the format changed and I went to TV full time. I was the sports anchor for FOX 8 from ’97 until 2010, on the 10 o’clock news every day. In 2010 I left to work full time for Good Karma and the show I do now with Aaron. I still do a Sunday night show on FOX 8 called The Rizzo Show, a half hour at 11pm every week.
BC: Do you have a medium preference, TV or radio?
TR: I enjoy both, but I love radio. We do a four hour show every day on the radio and there’s not a whole lot that goes unsaid. When I was on FOX 8 as a sports anchor, you might get three or four minutes a night.
It helps to work for a great company. Good Karma Brands is fantastic. Aaron and I have worked together for 14 years now and he’s not only a great friend, but we’re a team and our show wouldn’t be what it is without Aaron.
BC: Was it always The Really Big Show? Because it’s not just turn the mic on, take calls and go home. There’s a creative and even comedic aspect to the show, did it morph into what it is now?
TR: It did morph into it. In fact we called it Rizzo on the Radio in 2007. It only took about six months until we realized we had something special. I learned this from Lanigan, we use life as content and in today’s COVID-19 world, our show was made for this. A lot of people are scrambling without games, but we’ve always been more than sports and tried to reach a bigger audience.
BC: Did growing up around wrestling impact the way you do a show? Using the audience, using drama, and that’s part of why it’s more than just sports?
TR: Without a doubt. We have drama, some of it we perpetrate, some of it the audience does. Aaron and I both have theatrical backgrounds from college and we play that up on-air all the time. We try to be as real as we can, but I’d be lying to you if I told you every once in a while there’s not a little WWE in our show.
“He makes everything going on, on-air or off-air, all part of the fun of the show,” Goldhammer said. “Even though I was just running the board and producing at the start, he encouraged me to keep the mic close. Because whatever drama was going on with an angry caller trying to get on-air, he wanted that to be part of the show. It helped make me comfortable and understand his vision, that it was an inclusive brand of sports talk.”
TR: The show’s called The Really Big Show and that was originally to poke fun at ourselves because we didn’t think we’d last six months. I was a fan of The Big Show on ESPN so I said ‘let’s call this The Really Big Show,’ and then it turned out to be a really big show! It’s RBS for short and we have characters that call in who we refer to as RBSers, much like Finebaum or Howard Stern have on their shows. And Howard is another show I’ve listened to for a long time. I’ve stolen a lot of things from him and I’m proud of it. We have a saying in radio, nothing is original, everything is stolen from someone.
BC: Like Howard, your show does a great job of building a community. You have listeners that contribute and feel part of the show, you have listeners that love the show and listeners that hate it, but still tune-in.
TR: I need either an A or an F. That’s what I’m after. The people that love Howard listen for an hour, the people that hate Howard listen for three hours.
BC: What about social media’s impact on the industry, because you’ve had interactions with Joe Thomas and Dan Le Batard that can bring attention to the show, but there are negative sides as well.
TR: It’s a love hate relationship. There’s good and bad, but when I started doing this stuff in the ‘80s, you had to watch sports on the news to find out any information. Now athletes can go ahead and tell you their plans on Twitter which makes things difficult, but also keeps everyone connected. The one thing I stress to Aaron, that my dad and Lanigan always stressed to me was you have to adapt with the times. I try to stay as current as I can. I have 134K Twitter followers. I don’t tweet a lot, but I do tweet news and during games. Social media is a big part of our show, it changed the industry forever.
BC: The pairing with Aaron is unique. You come from different generations, different areas of the country, you root for different teams – was that relationship smooth from the start?
TR: When I came to work for Craig Karmazin, I told him I want to use someone I worked with at WHK in the ‘90s for the show. He said ‘no, I got this young kid who’s been working his butt off for me in Wisconsin, could you just meet him and tell me what you think?’ I met Aaron at a Cleveland State basketball game and we hit it off. To your point, the dichotomy is great. Aaron is 20 years younger than me. He’s from a different part of the country. That good cop bad cop perspective has worked really well for us.
“We have the kind of relationship where he does not hesitate to tell me if an idea I have is bad,” Goldhammer added. “99 of my ideas might get cut, but if one idea works, then it was successful. It’s absolutely a collaborative effort and we build on each other. Rizzo’s real genius is not just in coming up with the idea, but taking a good idea and turning it ever so slightly to make it great.
We don’t hold anything back with each other, we’re due to get mad and have a screaming fight once every few months. But I think it’s healthy for our relationship because we don’t bottle anything up and having that brutal honesty is so important and even refreshing.”
BC: How was being part of the Draft Day movie, were you and Aaron on set for that?
TR: Ivan Reitman came and directed Aaron and I for five hours one night in Cleveland at our studios! But they elected to use us in a very cool way in the movie, they used us on the radio. At one point in the movie, I’m talking about the Browns GM, played by Kevin Costner, and I said ‘If you get this wrong you will be gone!’ Costner slams his radio shut and you can see 850 AM on the screen. My company went absolutely bananas.
BC: In addition to your media gigs, you also owned a pizza place?
TR: I had a bunch of businesses, I owned limousines, I was always trying to make a buck when my kids were young.
BC: Has that helped in terms of being relatable right now with small business owners during the pandemic?
TR: Absolutely, it’s a great point and it helps me connect with our listeners and advertising partners. I have advertising partners that have been on with me the whole 14 years I’ve been on-air, we pride ourselves on that and I think it helps especially in difficult times like this. You can relate to somebody who’s calling their own shots, paying their own healthcare and trying to keep their own businesses.
BC: At 59 years old, how much is left in the tank?
TR: There are days I’d like to retire and then there are days where I feel like I can go 10 more years. One thing COVID has done, is it’s given Aaron and I a lot of reps doing this show from remote locations. We’ve talked about me maybe moving down to Florida and doing the show from there, but I can’t see myself leaving The Really Big Show any time soon.
“It’s something I don’t want to think of, but always have to keep some names in mind and I have some people on the list, but I’m anxious to not have to go to that list for a long time,” PD Matt Fishman said of having to find Rizzo’s replacement someday. “He’s great on-air, he’s a great teammate and one thing we all miss working from home right now is that he brings as much energy to the office as he does to the show.”
Goldhammer was much less sympathetic when I asked, ‘can you imagine a time having to do the show without Rizzo?’
“Yea. Quote me on that, I’m itching to get rid of him,” Golhammer said with a hearty laugh. “I can imagine doing the show without him because he takes about 20 weeks of vacation a year. They call it in the NBA, ‘load management.’ And I think the key to increasing and maximizing Rizz’s career is just like LeBron and Kawhi. If we play him 48 minutes a night every game, we’re gonna get him closer to retirement. I think we have to do some load management to make sure he’s ready for the playoffs.”
Adam The Bull Is Giving Cleveland Something It’s Never Had Before
“It was only more recently that I was like why do I have to only be a radio guy?”
After spending 22 years on the radio, Adam “The Bull” Gerstenhaber was ready for a new adventure. In fact, the former co-host of Bull and Fox on 92.3 The Fan in Cleveland did not have a new job lined up when he signed off from his 11-year radio home last month.
“I was already leaving without having a new project,” admitted Gerstenhaber during a recent phone interview with BSM. “I left before I knew for sure I had a ‘next project’.”
Gerstenhaber was preparing for his final show with co-host Dustin Fox on April 1st when he was contacted by an executive producer for TEGNA, a company that was developing a Cleveland sports television show on YouTube. The executive producer, who had just found out that Bull was a free agent, made it clear that he wanted Bull to be a part of the new project.
It all came together very quickly.
“Let’s talk on Monday,” Gerstenhaber told the executive producer. “And within a week they signed me up.”
The Ultimate Cleveland Sports Show on YouTube featuring Gerstenhaber, former ESPN personality Jay Crawford, 92.3 The Fan’s Garrett Bush, and rotating hosts to make up a four-person round-table show, made its debut last Monday. The show, which airs weekdays from 11am to 1pm, features passionate Cleveland sports talk, live guests, either in-studio or via Zoom, as well as interaction from the audience through social media.
“I’m very excited,” said Gerstenhaber. “It’s a definite adjustment for me after 22 years on radio doing television. For the last 11 years, I’ve been doing a radio show with just one other host and I was the lead guy doing most of the talking and now I’m on a show with three other people and it’s such an adjustment. So far, I’m having a ball.”
And so far, the reaction to the show has been very positive.
A big reason why is that it’s something that Cleveland didn’t have and really never had, unlike a city like New York, where there are local radio shows that are simulcast on regional sports channels.
“There’s nothing like that in Cleveland,” said Gerstenhaber. “And there was certainly nothing like this with a panel. Cleveland is such a massive sports town and now people that don’t live in Cleveland that are maybe retired in Florida or Arizona, now they actually have a TV show that they can watch that’s Cleveland-centric.”
The new venture certainly represents a big change in what Bull has been used to in his radio career. He’s enjoying the freedom of not having to follow a hard clock for this show. In fact, there have already been some occasions where the show has been able to go a little longer than scheduled because they have the flexibility to do that on YouTube.
Doing a show on YouTube gives the panel a great opportunity to go deep into topics and spend some quality time with guests. And while there is no cursing on the show at the moment, there could be the potential for that down the road.
Don’t expect the show is going to become X-rated or anything like that, but the objective is to be able to capture the spirit and emotion of being a sports fan and host.
“It’s something we may do in the future,” said Gerstenhaber. “Not curse just to curse but it gives us the option if we get fired up. It is allowed because there’s no restrictions there. The company doesn’t want us to do it at the moment.”
There’s also been the shift for Gerstenhaber from being the “point guard” on his old radio show, driving the conversation and doing most of the talking, to now taking a step back and having Crawford distributing the ball on the television show.
For a guy called “The Bull”, that will take some getting used to.
“Jay is a pro’s pro,” said Gerstenhaber. “He’s the point guard for this but he’s also part of the conversation. I’m not used to not being the point guard so I have to adjust to that. I think it’s gone pretty well and the chemistry is pretty good and with time we’ll get used to the flow of it.”
Gerstenhaber’s move from sports radio to an internet television show is a perfect example of how the industry is changing. A good portion of the listening and viewing audience these days, especially those in the younger demographic, are not necessarily watching traditional television or listening to terrestrial radio. For a lot of sports fans, watching and listening on a mobile device or a computer has become a very important way of life.
The desire to adapt, along with a shorter workday, was very enticing to him.
“It was only more recently that I was like why do I have to only be a radio guy?” wondered Gerstenhaber. “There were things about my job that I was unhappy about. I was doing a five-hour radio show. It’s too long. That’s crazy. Nobody should be doing a five-hour radio show at this point.”
Broadcasting on the internet has arrived and it’s not just a couple of sports fans doing a show from their garage anymore. The business has evolved to the point where the technology has provided more opportunities for those who have already enjoyed success in the industry and are looking for new challenges.
Kind of like Adam The Bull!
“I think years ago, probably like many people in the radio business, we looked at internet and podcasts as like whatever…those guys aren’t professionals…they’re amateurs,” said Gerstenhaber. “But the game has changed.”
Gerstenhaber, Crawford and everyone associated with the “Ultimate Cleveland Sports Show” should not have much of a problem attracting the younger audience. That demographic is already accustomed to watching shows on YouTube and other streaming platforms. The challenge now is to get the more mature audience on board. There are certainly some obstacles there.
I know this from experience with trying to explain to my mother in Florida how she can hear me on the radio and watch me on television simply by using her tablet.
Bull can certainly relate to that.
“My mother is still trying to figure out how to watch the show live,” said Gerstenhaber with a chuckle. “The older fans struggle with that. A lot of my older fans here in Cleveland are like how do I watch it? For people that are under 40 and certainly people that under 30, watching a YouTube show is like okay I watch everything on my phone or device. It’s such a divide and obviously as the years go by, that group will increase.”
With the television show off and running, Gerstenhaber still has a passion for his roots and that’s the radio side of the business. In the next couple of weeks, “The Bull” is set to announce the launch of two podcasts, one daily and one weekly, that will begin next month. But he also hasn’t ruled out the possibility of returning to terrestrial radio at some point.
“I have not closed the door to radio,” said Gerstenhaber. “I still love radio. I would still, in the right set of circumstances, consider going back to radio but it would have to really be the perfect situation. I’m excited about (the television show) and right now I don’t want to do anything else but I’m certainly going to remain open-minded to radio if a really excellent opportunity came up.”
The landscape of the broadcasting industry, particularly when it comes to sports, has certainly changed over the years and continues to evolve. Adam Gerstenhaber certainly enjoyed a tremendous amount of success on the radio side, both in New York and in Cleveland, but now he has made the transition to something new with the YouTube television show and he’s committed to making it a success.
I Heard A Lot of Boring, Uncreative Sports Radio On Friday
“Sometimes your first idea is your best one. You don’t know that though if you stop thinking after one idea. That is what it feels like happens a lot the day after NFL schedules are released”
Maybe this one is on me for expecting better. Maybe I need to take my own advice and accept that there are times the sports radio audience just wants a little comfort food. Still, this is my column and I am going to complain because I listened to probably six different stations on Friday and all of them were doing the exact same thing.
The NFL schedule was released on Thursday night, so on Friday, regardless of daypart, every show seemingly felt obligated to have the same three conversations.
- How many games will the home team win?
- What does the number of primetime games we got mean for how much respect we have nationally?
- Why do the Lions still get to play on Thanksgiving?
Football is king. I get that. Concrete NFL news is always going to take priority. That is understandable. But where was even an ounce of creativity? Where was the desire to do better – not just better than the competition, but better than the other shows in your own building?
I listened to shows in markets from across the league. The conversations were the same regardless of size or history of success. Everyone that picked in the top 5 in last month’s draft is going to go 10-7. Every team that got less than 5 primetime games feels disrespected. It was all so boring.
Those of us in the industry don’t consume content the way listeners do. We all know that. Perhaps I am harping on something that is only a problem to me because I listen to sports talk radio for a living. If you don’t ever want to put more than the bare minimum of effort into your show, decide that is the reason for my reaction and go click on another article here.
Consider this though, maybe the fact that I listen to so much sports radio means I know how much quality there is in this industry. Maybe it means that I can spot someone talented that is phoning it in.
I want to be clear in my point. There is value in giving your record prediction for the home team. Listeners look at the people on the radio as experts. I will bet some futures bets in a lot of markets were made on Friday based on what the gambler heard coming through their speakers. All I want to get across is there is a way to have that conversation that isn’t taking two segments to go through each week one by one. I heard no less than three stations do that on Friday.
Sometimes your first idea is your best one. You don’t know that though if you stop thinking after one idea. That is what it feels like happens a lot the day after NFL schedules are released. It’s a very familiar rhythm: pick the wins, get a guest on to preview the week 1 opponent, take calls, texts and tweets with the listeners’ predictions.
I didn’t hear anyone ask their listeners to sell them on the over for wins. I didn’t hear anyone give me weeks that you could skip Red Zone because one matchup is just too damn good. I didn’t hear anyone go through the Sunday Night Football schedule and pick out the weeks to schedule dates because the matchup isn’t worth it.
Maybe none of those ideas are winners, and that is fine. They are literally three dumb ideas I pulled out of the air. But they are all ways to review the schedule that could potentially leave a smile on your listener’s face.
Show prep is so important, especially in a group setting. It is your chance to tell your partner, producer, or host that you know you can do better than the idea that has just been thrown out. Quit nodding in agreement and challenge each other! It may mean a little more work for you, but it means more reward for the listeners. And if the listeners know they can rely on you for quality, creative content, that leads to more reward for you.
And lay off the Lions. It’s Thanksgiving. You’re stuck at home. The NFL could give you Lions vs Jaguars and you’d watch.
Why You Should Be Making Great TikTok Content
“We’re specially trained in the world of TSL (time spent listening), and the longer people view your content on TikTok, the more the app rewards you by shoving your content into more and more feeds.”
It feels like there’s a new social media platform to pay attention to every other week. That makes it easy to overlook when one of them actually presents value to your brand. It wasn’t long ago that TikTok was primarily used by teenagers with the focus being silly dance trends filmed for video consumption with their friends and followers alike. Now, as the general public has become in tune with how this complicated app works, it’s grown far beyond that.
TikTok is now an app used by all types of demographics and unlike TikTok’s closely related cousins Instagram and Facebook, this app provides a certain type of nuance that I think people in our line of work can really excel in.
Before I get into the nuts and bolts of how you can use TikTok to your advantage and how to make your videos catch on, I think it’s important to first mention why this matters for you. Now, if I’m being realistic, I’m sure there are some that have already stopped reading this or those that could scroll away fast enough when they saw the words TikTok. You might be thinking that this doesn’t fit your demo, or maybe that it’s a waste of time because productivity here won’t directly lead to an uptick in Nielsen ratings. But I’m not sure any social network directly leads to what we ultimately get judged on, and we aren’t always pumping out content directly to our core audience.
TikTok, like any other app you may use, is marketing. This is another free tool to let people out there know who you are and what you offer in this endless sea of content. And the beauty of TikTok is that it directly caters its algorithm to content creators just like us. Bottom line, if you are a personality in sports talk, there’s no reason you can’t be crushing it on TikTok right now. All it takes is a little direction, focus, consistency, and a plan.
Unlike Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter where you can throw a photo up with a caption and be done for the day, TikTok’s whole model is built on creative videos that keep users engaged for longer periods of time. This approach works. According to Oberlo, a social media stat tracking site, people spend more time per day on TikTok than any other popular social media application. 38 minutes per day!
This is where this is good news for us in talk radio. We’re specially trained in the world of TSL (time spent listening), and the longer people view your content on TikTok, the more the app rewards you by shoving your content into more and more feeds. TikTok’s algorithm doesn’t care how many followers you have, your level of credibility, or the production on your video. All ir cares about is 1) Is your content good. and 2) Are people watching it. 3) How long are they watching it. The more people watch and the longer they watch creates a snowball effect. Your videos views will skyrocket, sometimes within hours.
So, how do you create content that will catch on? It’s really not all that different than what you do every day. Create thought-provoking commentary that makes people think, argue, or stay till the end to get the info you teased up for them. I’ve found through my own trial and error that it’s best if you stay away from time-sensitive material, I’ve had more success the more evergreen my content is. That way, the shelf life expands beyond just that day or week. This is different for everyone and there’s no one-size-fits-all, but this is where I’ve seen the most success.
Also, put yourself out there, don’t be afraid to say something that people are going to vehemently disagree with. Again, it’s not unlike what we do every day. It’s one thing to get someone to listen, it’s another to get them to engage. Once they hit you in the comment section, you’ve got them hooked. Comments breed more views and on and on. But don’t just let those sit there, even the smallest interaction back like a shoulder shrug emoji can go a long way in creating more play for your video.
If you want to grow quickly, create a niche for yourself. The best content creators that I follow on TikTok all put out very similar content for most of their videos. This means, unlike Instagram where it’s great to show what a wildly interesting and eclectic person you are, TikTok users want to know what they’re getting the second your face pops up on that screen. So if you are the sports history guy, be the sports history guy all the time. If you are the top 5 list guy, be the top 5 list guy all the time, and on and on, you get the point.
Other simple tricks:
- Splice small videos together. Don’t shoot one long video.
- 90 seconds to 2 minutes is a sweet spot amount of time.
- Add a soft layer of background instrumental music (this feature is found in the app when you are putting the finishing touches on your video)
- Label your video across the screen at the start and time it out so that it disappears seconds later. This way a user gets an idea of what the content is immediately and then can focus on you delivering your message thereafter.
- Research trending hashtags, they are far more important than whatever you caption your video.
- Use closed captions so that people can follow your video without sound.
Finally, don’t be intimidated by it or snub your nose at it. Anything that helps your brand is worth doing and anything worth doing is worth doing well.