In a past column I wrote for Barrett News Media, I mentioned that some of my best interactions have been with colleagues who oppose most (if not all) of my political views.
Todd Herman is one name that stands out.
The morning man on Seattle’s KTTH-AM and guest host for The Rush Limbaugh Show is a fascinating person who has led a fascinating life. He’s worked for Microsoft, founded startups, and spent time working for the RNC. Yet, his passion for storytelling led him to where he is today.
He’s not your typical conservative talker. He never comes off angry, but instead calm, confidant and curious. When I would challenge him on an issue his first response was not to challenge me back, but to discover why I thought the way I did. His faith drives him to look for the good in people.
I caught up with Todd recently to talk about his work with Limbaugh, the radio industry, and where conservative media is headed.
You earned the very rare opportunity to be one of the regular guest hosts on The Rush Limbaugh Show. What has that experience been like for you?
If you had the opportunity to do fill in work for the person you admire most in your industry what would that be like for you? For me, it caused to me speak a word I had used all once before in my life: “Surreal.” Since I have been honored to fill in for Rush, for a number of years, it’s now a lot of fun. It’s a joy, and that is because of the EIB team and the Rush Limbaugh callers. Being around the show, even as a rodeo clown fill in, I wish more people really got to know what Rush and his team at EIB have built. This is beyond a media company or a radio show; the connection Rush’s listeners feel to him is not a soft bond, it’s a strong bond. What I experience when doing the show, comes partly from what I feel from callers. The EIB team–and, in that, I include Ken Matthews and Mark Steyn, also guest hosts–is an obsessive focus on serving that audience. It doesn’t get the attention it deserves: Rush’s Team has been with him for up to thirty-years! Think of this industry or media in general! Where do teams like that stick together that long, with this much success? I know a little bit about culture and longevity, and the focus on delivering excellence isn’t accidental. What continually strikes me when I work with EIB, is the culture of graciousness. “Bo Snerdley” and Kraig Kitchin have helped me understand when I am at my best as a host and when I drop below my best and they do that with great bedside manners, albeit with two very different personalities. There are people in radio who would be wise to pay to get their feedback (well, we would all be wise to seek that), and I get paid to listen to it and learn from that. So, it’s graciousness and I extend that assessment to all the show people, the finance, show revenue generators, and right back to the foundation: the audience. But even with all that, when the show theme rolls and I hear Johnny Donovan say my name, I am just struck with awe and gratitude that God somehow decided to make this possible, and of course, to my home team in Seattle at 770 KTTH, for giving me a daily platform of weekday mornings.
You have a unique background. You were an executive for Microsoft during the Gates days, you worked in D.C. for the Republican Party and even [founded, lead, and sold] several startups. Most (if not all) of those fields are far more lucrative than radio. Where does your passion for the business come from and why do you still do it?
I love story. I love to tell them and hear them. I am deeply passionate about proper governance and the rule of law. So, as a host, I am blessed to be able to combine these elements into a radio show. I prefer radio to Podcasting, because I crave walking the highwire of live radio, where what occurs to me, as I analyze news, is a split second from landing with my audience, and the stories I tell are directly shared with the people who make possible my career. I adore extemporaneously expressing my thoughts and getting feedback. My love of this all, got fed to me. During my youth, my father would play Paul Harvey and I especially loved “The Rest of The Story.” In my teens, I got the great gift of a lifelong best friend whose father, Gary Taylor was an important radio and music executive. With he and his son, my dearest friend, I was able to learn from Gary’s play by play critique of radio, and you will hear me reference sort of old time FM radio talk, on my local show–“Oh, I hit the post on that bump!”–I adore the mix of those kinds of performance dynamics with more thoughtful moments, things I heard from people like Jim French (a Seattle radio legend) and good-spirited mockery, like Pat Cashman did (another great radio person from Seattle) and I now get to work with a great monologuer, Dori Monson. My life changed forever, though, when I heard Rush Limbaugh, and all of these pieces came together and all wrapped around one man’s opinions, intelligence, wit, and love of the craft; when I heard Rush’s show, I was sold, I had had to do it. I am certainly not comparing myself to these greats, I am just explaining how I came to love this medium.
Given your background in the tech sector, I had to lob you a question on that front! What are the best things radio can do to evolve itself and reach the younger, tech-savvy consumer base?
I have a firm rule, Ryan; old people have no business explaining how to reach young people unless the old folk are speaking from direct observation at scale and in-depth, evidentiary data. So, with those caveats in place, I would hope radio executives are cool hunting beyond apps and gadgets and down to the “why?” What I mean is this: Why does a young person use TikTok for some content and Snapchat for others? Why are so many young people doing their own cool hunting (their own version of A&R) and finding artists before the labels do. For instance, my daughter was listening to Cavetown, there were about 100 people on that YouTube channel. She has done that with a lot of artists, who have gone on to some good level of fame. So, this is still about content, story and relationship and these young people are far more similar to their parents and grandparents than we are led to believe: My daughter has dumped TikTok and now watches long form documentaries and stories, that has happened as she has aged; as I grew up, I listened to less hair metal and more of the Beatles, stopped Hogan’s Heroes and started watching more sophisticated stuff. Beyond that “focus group of one” comparison, consider the YouTube sensations, Dan & Phil. Where did their careers lead them? To a BBC deal and a hugely successful series of live stage shows. I saw both tours of Dan & Phil, and with the notable exceptions related to cultural shifts, these stage shows were good, old fashion shtick, some Joseph Campbell, some Odd Couple, some Vaudeville. So, these “tech savvy” young people–which I would express as “tech culture” young people–bought tickets, stood in line, bought merch, screamed, and cried when the guys came on stage, and then, in Seattle, chased their tour bus in teen hysteria. Is that a tech story? No, it’s a content story and Dan & Phil–who are now guys in their 30’s–built a strong bond with their audience because they adapted to a new aesthetic: They spoke in intimate terms, close up shots, often with no music, to their audience. Sure, Dan & Phil are performers, but they knew their medium well enough, to know when to emote and when to clown.
You and I have very different political views. Despite that, we had some fascinating conversations and always had the ability to, many times, meet each other in the middle. Can that kind of mentality make for good radio?
Could that mentality make good radio? Sure. Can a radio show like that succeed? No and yes. No: not as a new radio show. The Nation has been divided so completely, and these divisions are being inflamed so brilliantly, that I believe a new radio show with left and right cannot work. You will be losing 50% of the audience every few minutes. Yes: if the radio show pre-existed our Nation being divided so expertly. If the audience got to know the hosts before the great divide, then they can love the hosts without regard to the divide. Yes: if the hosts have a solid basis of friendship that pre-dates the great divide, the audience will sense that. Again, we have a model of that: Tom & Curley in Seattle, their show, and their friendship pre-dates the great divide; it’s fun, engaging radio because they are terrific performers, it still works because their audience grew up with them and with Curley, in his 80th year of radio, they stick with him to help him into old age. I said the mentality we share could make good radio. You and I can find a way to respect one another’s views, because I think you and I enjoy honest debate. You are a guy who likes to think about what people tell you, and I am a person who is fascinated with how people think. My faith calls me to have love for people and your nature, I believe, is to find the good in folks, even dangerous, right-wing lunatics like me. These characteristics make for great conversation, and I imagine it could work well in a Podcast where people choose to listen to a Left and Right dynamic and have success. But, not with radio where tune-ins matter.
What is the future of not just conservative talk radio but conservative media? How will it manage to exist and thrive despite the rise of “wokeness” and “cancel culture”?
That depends on how serious the New York Times is about the government having a “reality Czar” who decides what is or is not “true.” It depends on whether the totalitarians at Facebook, Google and Twitter get to continue to disappear us. If CNN hosts get their way, and OANN and NewsmaxTV are stricken from Comcast and Verizon pipes, it will be a hard path. We will have to buy our own servers, our own networks, pipes, and that clearly would take enormous investments. What’s happened in content, though, is fascinating: I firmly believe we are the news media. My audience knew about eight months ago the 35 Cycle PCR tests used to justify the deadly, medically useless, politically targeted lockdowns of schools, churches, and small businesses, were tragically flawed and delivered up to 98% false positives for Covid. Now, the World Health Organization finally admitted these tests are deeply flawed. My audience knew in March of last year, that all of the evidentiary data indicated children are at less risk from Covid than they are from flu; they knew people ages 20 – 40 are more likely to die playing football than from Covid. My audience heard, firsthand, that Hydroxychloroquine was never controversial until CNN manufactured that false reality, and suddenly it’s safe again. Now–as if by magic–we have Democrat politicians demanding schools open. It’s insane in a way, but my little show, Rush’s huge show, Glenn Beck’s program, in Seattle, my great colleague, Dori Monson, we have become the places where people can hear a counter narrative that breaks with what has, in far too many cases, become what I call the Mockingbird Media; shows and hosts who repeat and amplify the talking points of technocrats and leftist government, without a shred of skepticism. I am not claiming some mantle of infallibility, far from it, but in relation to Covid, somehow, we were right from three days after the partial, selective, deadly lockdowns began. So, unless we are disappeared, we will thrive by being the people who are committed to speaking fact and being open about our opinions and biases. However, if Twitter, Facebook and YouTube and CNN and The New York Times get their wish, and conservative news sources are disappeared, then the counter narrative is gone. If that happens, large scale debate is over and with it peaceful dissent. Should those things fall, America is gone. Hopefully, people in our industry with actual power, will not let that happen.
Radio is a Sick Patient In Need of Surgery
“Fewer people listening for less time is a dangerous combination and should be a flashing red light that dramatic action is necessary.”
If you didn’t participate in Jacobs’ TechSurvey or see the presentation of the results, you missed radio’s annual “physical” report. With the permission and help of Fred Jacobs and Jacobs Media, this column reviews highlights (and lowlights) from the data. Jacobs Media has also provided some data specific to News/Talk fans.
When I get data, I write, a lot. Perhaps I use too many numbers? If you don’t like a lot of numbers, I’ve made it easy to find my conclusions and recommendations. You’ll find those paragraphs in bold and italics.
The results are based on over 30,000 online surveys. There are nearly 5,000 News/Talk format fans in the study. Most respondents came from radio stations’ databases. Therefore, the results tend to show radio in its most favorable light.
First, we turn briefly to the RAB website, which shows Nielsen data with Radio’s Weekly Reach consistently at 92 or 93 percent of persons 12+ from 2009 through 2013. From 2014 to 2016, the figure dropped to 91%, then to 90% in 2017. Weekly Reach fell to 89% in 2018 and 2019. The cliff came in 2020 when the percentage plunged to 83%. The most recent data suggests it will hold steady for at least another year.
Jacobs TechSurvey 2022 shows that the amount of time spent with radio is dropping among those who remain. The number listening to radio for an hour or more on a typical day has steadily eroded from 92% in 2018 to 86% this year. Again, this is among people who are in radio station databases.
Fewer people listening for less time is a dangerous combination and should be a flashing red light that dramatic action is necessary.
TechSurvey tracks the percentage of people with a radio in their homes. The number has consistently shrunk, from 88% in 2018 to 81% this year.
The device known as “a radio “is also in fewer people’s homes and consciousness. This finding has profound implications for broadcast radio.
Twelve percent (12%) of total respondents say they are listening to radio less. Half of those spending less time listening say it is because they are in the car less. Similarly, 48% are listening less because of “lifestyle changes.” During the TechSurvey webinar, Fred Jacobs pointed out that Covid affects these levels. Before the pandemic, “less time in the car” consistently received about 30%. Last year it jumped to 71%. At 50%, Jacobs concluded, “we’re not back to normal yet.”
Less time in the car during Covid and lifestyle changes are not actionable but important to keep in mind. Still, the impact of technology and management decisions is clear.
Among those listening less:
- 33% say it’s because they have more audio options in the car,
- 26% report it is because they use their mobile phones or apps more.
- 21% mention listening to Sirius XM instead.
- 19% are spending more time with Podcasts or on-demand content.
The new reality is these technologies are the competition. Each one is a reason why broadcasters must produce better content than ever.
- 27% state too many commercials are why they listen less.
- 20% say they are not enjoying the programming.
Radio broadcasters cannot afford to make short-term programming decisions in today’s hyper-competitive environment. At the risk of preaching to the choir, loading up on low-rate commercials may drag a station, cluster, or company over the finish line for the month, but the long-term damage to the entire industry is immeasurable. The same is true about hanging on to shows that, you know (deep down inside), lack star power. Anything less than “error-free” is a suicide trap.
TechSurvey 2022 draws attention to the audio options consumers have in the car. The data also shows that these options are becoming increasingly easy to access.
Eight out of ten (80%) who own a smartphone and spend time in a vehicle can connect the phone to their car. The percentage who can connect their phone and vehicle has steadily risen from 73 in 2018 to 80%.
The numbers for those who will connect their phones and vehicles will undoubtedly rise. The data shows that 12 or 13% plan to buy a new car annually. This year, Bluetooth (76%) overtook FM Radio (70%) as the most important feature new car buyers want (last year, FM Radio led 74 to 73 percent). AM Radio is an important feature for just 33%.
Increasing numbers now have full audio entertainment systems or “connected cars.” Between 2018 and 2022, the number of connected cars rose from 24% to 30%. We should expect that number to increase by several percentage points every year.
Connected cars don’t bode well for AM/FM radio listening. TechSurvey asks respondents to estimate what percentage of time they spend listening to AM/FM Radio in the car. Since 2018 the number has steadily gotten lower, dropping from 62 to 56% overall. However, among those with connected cars, the time spent with AM/FM radio drops to 47%. A positive finding for News/Talk stations is format fans still devote 61% of their time to AM/FM listening,
Technology is changing how people tune in to radio, not just in the car but also at home and work. Participants estimate how much time they spend listening to their favorite station on various platforms in a typical week. Tuning in via a “traditional” radio accounts for 61% of respondents’ listening time. They spend 35% of their time with digital delivery methods (Computer stream – 17%, Mobile apps – 8%, smart speakers – 6%, podcasts – 4%). In 2013 85% of listening was through traditional radios, with 14% digitally. Today it’s traditional 61%, digital 35%. News/Talk format fans are slightly more likely to listen on traditional radios (65% vs. 31% digital).
Fewer people have radios, and less listening is on “traditional” devices. As people listen more on other devices, they increase their options. Again, radio must play “error-free.” Mistakes aren’t just an invitation to punch and see what the competition is doing. An error is an opportunity for the consumer to flip the game board over and play a different game.
The Jacobs presentation notes: “Mobile devices and apps continue their amazing growth trajectory.” Among P1 listeners who stream, they use the stations’ website less (68% – 65% – 61%), and its mobile app more (42% – 46% – 48%) since 2020. Further, station fans are aware of and downloading station apps in increasing numbers. It probably shouldn’t surprise anybody because of who is in the sample, but the P1 stations’ own app is the most downloaded radio or music app. What may surprise some is iHeartRadio at just 32% and Audacity below 9%.
I believe using aggregate apps exclusively for local radio stations is a colossal blunder. I understand the corporate sales philosophy. The revenue results suggest that using aggregate apps is not the answer to combat the revenue of the others on the chart. Many radio stations have spent decades building a brand. Creating new aggregated app brands merely allows the other names on the chart the time to bloom (excuse the pun). Long ago, my friend Pierre Bouvard drilled into my head that changing images is like melting icebergs with a Bic lighter. Aggregate radio apps are Climate Change for radio.
TechSurvey asks the reasons why people listen to AM/FM radio. The top three reasons:
- Easiest to listen to in a car: 65%. Here’s an advantage radio has had but is rapidly losing.
- DJs/Shows/Hosts: 62%. This year, a major finding is that among all respondents, personalities have become more important than music.
- It’s Free: 59%.
We look here specifically at News/Talk listeners compared to the entire survey:
Among News/Talk format fans, staying informed about news leaps ahead of all other answers, including: “easiest to listen to in the car” (4th 57%) and even “enjoy the talk shows” (second at 67%).
TechSurvey suggests information elements are a critical part of the mix to these listeners, even among talk show fans.
Following “enjoy talk shows” is a more specific mention of hosts and personalities (61%).
More than half (54%) of News/Talk fans say they listen to AM/FM radio to find out “what’s going on locally.” In the overall sample, 35% list local as a reason for listening to AM/FM radio.
Local is a potent weapon for managers and programmers of News/Talk Radio stations. Local should be kept in mind when making personnel, topic, strategy, and promotional decisions.
I believe one of the advantages that radio should have over the new digital options is brand equity and heritage. These ideas show up in statements such as “feel a connection with radio” and “in the habit of listening.”
Talk Radio fans report both branding measures below the overall average (“Habit” 54% overall vs. 45% among News/Talk fans and “connection” 51% for the total compared with 48% for News/Talk fans).
The lower scores on these measures suggest that, overall, News/Talk stations need to work on appointment building, listening occasions, and strengthening the relationship between the station and listeners.
Thanks, Fred and everyone at Jacobs Media, for doing the hard work and running News/Talk data for us. I encourage as many stations as possible to participate in next year’s TechSurvey. Your data will drive better decisions.
If this was a patient, say Mr. or Ms. Radio, and the TechSurvey 2022 data were the results from a physical, we would conclude that we had a very sick person. We might call it an emergency. Please, while there still is a pulse.
Todd Starnes Uses the Quirky Side of Life to Bring Both Sides Together
“I infuse my national show with a lot of humor. We try to take a look at the quirky side of life, bring both sides together,” Starnes said
Todd Starnes was an embedded reporter in the final six weeks of Barack Obama’s first campaign for president. He’s respected, vociferous, and holds his beliefs close to his heart. But don’t offer him any raw fish.
“The Obama campaign was notorious for being a very health-conscious group,” Starnes said. “On the plane, they served us sushi. When I wasn’t eating it, the flight attendant noticed and came up to me to ask what was wrong. I told her they forgot to cook the fish.”
He was joshing, but he certainly would have preferred a traditional southern Memphis dish like fried catfish and hushpuppies.
Starnes said Jen Psaki traveled with him on the Obama campaign. “We had a lot of fun talking a few times. Valerie Jarrett was there too,” Starnes explained. “We had a rigorous discussion about the difference between gumbo and jambalaya. We found the main difference was the use of rice.”
Starnes is an American conservative commentator, author, and radio host. He has appeared on Fox and Friends and Hannity. In June 2017, Starnes began hosting a syndicated talk radio show on Fox News Radio.
Starnes joined Fox News Channel in 2005 as a radio news anchor. He said the world today is operating beneath an umbrella of chaos. “Under our form of government, whether you’re Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, or atheist, you have a right to live your life,” Starnes said that can’t be said for other countries.
He said separation of church and state is not in the Constitution of the United States. “We are endowed by our creator, not mankind’s laws. We have God-given rights. That’s why religion is ingrained in every one of our founding documents. That’s where they were coming from. Look at what’s happening in the world without that order. We were meant to be a Christian nation,” Starnes said. “Under Judeo Christian philosophy, God doesn’t force your decisions.”
He says it’s all a version of the truth. “What happens when your truth conflicts with my truth? What takes precedence?”
On the lighter side, his entry into radio started with a gift. “My grandpa gave me a transistor radio when I was young,” Starnes said. “I remember listening to WWLin Lousianna. Stations in Cincinnati. I was fascinated by radio.”
Starnes said he always had his radio with him as a ten-year-old kid. Cassette tapes were all the rage. “I ran my own talk show,” he said. “I was the host, the guest, and the crew. It was really out there. It was a lot of fun.”
Unfortunately, low ratings doomed the ambitious ten-year-old’s show, and he had to go back to fourth grade.
“On my imaginary show, I talked about your traditional southern life, great experiences,” he said. “We lived close to the Mississippi River.” The ghosts of Mark Twain and Huck Finn undoubtedly played a role in his literary development.
Starnes was in college during the Limbaugh years and said he learned a lot from listening. “We didn’t know what was going to happen next. I’m on during the lunch hour from 12-3, and we talk about the crazy issues of the day. That doesn’t mean we always know where it’s going.”
He loved radio so much he bought a radio station during a pandemic. This is something Starnes admitted was a little crazy.
“If there’s ever a question on Jeopardy about who was stupid enough to buy a radio station during a pandemic, the answer would be, ‘Who is Todd Starnes.’”
Why did he buy a radio station? Starnes said corporate radio did a number on local radio.
“We had these rich heritage stations in Memphis,” Starnes said. “I was driving on the road when severe weather broke out. The streets were flooded, power towers were down. It was second nature to tune in to the ‘local’ station when severe weather hit. They were in Fox programming. No mention of the dangerous weather.”
After the clouds dissipated, Starnes told himself if he ever had a chance to purchase a radio station, he would.
A month later, he got a phone call from Legacy Media. The owner said if Starnes was ever interested in buying a station, they should talk. That conversation convinced Starnes to purchase the Memphis talk station 990 AM KWAM for $685,000. It’s now the flagship station for Starnes’ radio show.
Prior to purchasing the station, Starnes sought counsel from friends. He put the deal together quickly, and business has been phenomenal.
“I was told the first thing I should do is steal the competition’s garden show. We did.”
The garden folks weren’t happy where they were, and Starnes made them an offer they couldn’t refuse.
“I told them they’d be treated like royalty, and I’d double what the other station was paying them.”
When I reminded Starnes that might not be the ‘Christian’ thing to do, he reminded me we should ‘Do Unto Others.” He was joking…I think
Starnes has written numerous books, including The Deplorables’ Guide to Making America Great Again and God Less America.
“I love the product after the writing,” Starnes jokes. “Editors may not feel the same way. I’ll outline everything and often start with a phrase I’ve heard, some sort of clever anecdote.”
Starnes said he was influenced by the writings of southern humorist Lewis Grizzard and sardonic Irma Bombeck, who achieved success with her newspaper syndication. He said he had to be discreet when he indulged her columns.
“If someone in junior high had caught me reading Irma Bombeck, it wouldn’t have been pretty.”
Molly Ivins, a liberal columnist from Texas, was also on his list of influences.
“She once called George W. Bush a shrub,” Starnes explained. “Then there was Art Buchwald, a fine-tuned satirist.” Buchwald appeared to some as a curmudgeonly writer. “Buchwald was a friendly, affable person,” Starnes said. “I’m kind of a curmudgeon.”
Starnes admitted the differences between liberals and conservatives aren’t always that big of a chasm, then again.
“We’re living in such an odd time,” he said. “Something nefarious is happening. I know a lot of liberals are true patriots; they love their country. They are dead-wrong on issues.”
Some of these incendiary sentiments are echoed in Starnes’ book, Cultural Jihad: How to Stop the Left from Killing a Nation. In the book, Starnes accuses progressives of bulldozing through American history. He goes on to say ‘We the People’ are the only ones who can stop them. He says America is on the verge of another Civil War; socialism is on the rise. Free Speech is under assault. People of Faith are facing persecution. Gun owners are in the crosshairs.
“Progressives are turning our history into a pile of rubble,” Starnes said. “That kind of thing concerns me as a free speech purist. It’s all a cancel culture mob. They dug up the body of a confederate general and tore down his stature. Are they going to tear Harvard down because one of the founders owned a slave a hundred years ago?”
On an even lighter side, you wouldn’t think a man like Starnes would be into radical comedy.
“I love Dave Chappele,” Starnes said. “I love his sense of humor, his presentation. He takes on culture issues of the day. And he’s spot-on.”
Starnes said we need more humor on the whole. “I infuse my national show with a lot of humor. We try to take a look at the quirky side of life, bring both sides together.”
And he believes that’s possible. “There is hope for us as America,” Starnes said. “I’ve had the chance to travel all over the nation and speak to thousands of people every year. What I talk about is not based on a political party. It comes from a higher source.”
Starnes is a frequent speaker at churches, Christian conferences, and Christian universities. He has delivered messages at the Ronald Reagan Ranch, the Billy Graham Training Center. Visiting Starnes’ early days, he said he was a follower of William F. Buckley. Barry Goldwater, Ronald Reagan. “They framed the conservative movement,” he said. “It is a religious battle. On my show, we talk about matters of faith, morality. If we don’t have a shared value, morality, you have the chaos we see today.” He said Buckley, Reagan, and Goldwater would be very happy with the way things have swayed. “Let’s Make America Great Again was a Reagan campaign slogan. Trump borrowed from that.” Is he saying we need to make new red hats that read LMAGA?
Starnes said there’s no need to worry; talk radio will be around for a very long time.
“You get to call in with your opinion. Share your opinion, have a conversation. You never know where it’s going to go, what they’re going to say. You don’t get that on television. You can’t really capture that on a podcast.”
Starnes also issues a word of caution. “Talk radio isn’t supposed to be three hours of screaming,” he said. “That’s not what this is about. As far as the hosts, he says being authentic is critical. “Don’t be something you’re not. If you do, you’ll fall flat on your face.”
Hopefully, into a big plate of catfish and hushpuppies.
News/Talk AM 1130’s Drew Lee Just Wants To Understand and Help His Colleagues
Justice & Drew on News/Talk AM 1130, Minneapolis, shoot for a 25-54 demographic.
In radio, your most vital partner in life might be your co-host. You do spend an incredible amount of time in a cramped room, sharing ideas over mediocre coffee and talking about life experiences. It’s a lot like a marriage, without the laundry and dirty dishes.
Justice & Drew on News/Talk AM 1130, Minneapolis, shoot for a 25-54 demographic. “That’s what the company wants from us,” Drew Lee said. “On AM, it’s a little wider, maybe 35-64 as a target audience.”
“Jon Justice was my morning host in Tucson, Arizona,” Lee continued. “I think the best thing about Jon is his attention to detail,” Lee said. “His attention to detail when putting the show together. He’s meticulous with his prep.” Lee said Justice reads every word of every story, finding nuggets in mundane stories to talk about on the air
Off the air, not Mr. Excitement.
“Jon is like a brother, but there is one thing that irritates me. He’s such a homebody,” Lee jokes. “It’s impossible to get him out of the house. I’d like to see us get the show out more often to events, openings.”
Lee said he’s definitely an extrovert, and he has no hesitation having fun with Justice and himself. “It’ll be six years this summer we’ve been together, and we’re still having a good time,” Lee said.
The duo start out topical, addressing the big points of the day in news. “Those are obviously going to get our attention first,” Lee said. “We don’t want to drag something on for three hours; that’s just overwhelming for an audience.”
Lee said he and Justice don’t find they’re delivering their best shows in an angry vein. “It’s best when we have fun,” Lee said. “I try to figure out what’s in Jon’s wheelhouse. I do work hard to sprinkle in any reference to the Marvel cinematic Universe.”
Now we’re starting to see what makes Lee click.
Lee is also a big Star Wars fan. Not as big as Justice, but still big. Lee said he’s always been motivated by Monty Python. Lee referenced a Monty Python documentary on Netflix. Monty Python, Almost the Truth. The Lawyer’s Cut.
“It’s a six-part series,” Lee explained. “I’ve always loved Python. We were just talking about Monty Python on the air today. I remember in drama class; I lifted Python material all the time.”
As a kid, Lee said he knocked heads in football, on defense, and offense. “I was huge into sports,” he said. “I wanted to be a Miami Dolphin. I played football in high school in Ocala, Florida. I wrestled as well.”
He admits he rode the pines a lot in football, but that didn’t deter his love for contact sports. “I’m a big guy. I love physicality. As a lineman, I enjoyed practice. Hitting. In wrestling, it was all about imposing your will on the other guy, tossing him around.”
Perhaps that’s why he enjoys ‘wrestling’ with Justice on the air. Outside of the wrestling match, Lee said he didn’t mix it up much. “I was only in a ‘real’ fight once in my life. There were a couple of punches thrown; then we were pulled apart.”
Other than sports, Lee said he spent a lot of time reading. “Ocala is a very rural area. If I wasn’t wrestling, we were lighting a bonfire, chasing beer and girls.
(See Jesse Kelly story for a similar youth.)
Kelly’s on-air work has resonated with Lee. “He’s fearless,” Lee explained. “He will say some stuff on the air that just blows me away. It’s nice to see talk show hosts that aren’t afraid to talk and sometimes put their foot in their mouths.” Lee said people that are willing to push the envelope are always welcome. Lee said he’s happy Kelly has enjoyed success. “I just wish we’d have grabbed on to his coattails,” he jokes.
Lee was delivering pizza in Florida and attending an audio recording vocational school. “I wanted to be a music producer,” he said. While delivering pizzas, he listened to WTKS 104.1 FM in Cocoa Beach.
Jim Phillips hosted afternoons on WTKS-FM from 1992 to 2018. Phillips worked in the Orlando market since 1972, first as a news reporter
“I also listened to Russ and Bo on WTKS,” Lee said. “They were very similar to Howard Stern. They became the “Monsters in the Morning,” and still have a podcast on IHeartRadio.”
Rus and Bo were looking for an intern, and Lee answered the call. “I drove to Orlando and applied, got it,” Lee said. “Apparently, I was the only person who applied.”
His duties on the show were a bit of everything. Cleaning up, booking guests, whatever was necessary. That morphed into a weekend gig for about a year.
He welcomed his first daughter, and radio wasn’t paying the bills, so Lee took some time off. The lure of radio called him back at WSKY FM in Gainesville.
“The Sky was a conservative news and talk station,” Lee said. “It still is. I was hired as a board-op, then morning show producer. Six months later, I was PD.”
His new job demanded about 80 hours a week, Lee said. “A good PD must have the ability to listen. Get the best out of the people you have, then put them in situations where you maximize their strengths.”
Understanding the people that work for him was his primary goal. “I might chew one guy out and be gentle with another,” Lee said. “It’s especially that way with talent. You have to find those ‘buttons’ to press. Some people like a combative relationship. They like to shake hands and move on.”
Still others, Lee said you have to coax things out of them. “Everyone has insecurities, flaws, strengths. Part of being a good manager is understanding that.”
Lee said his personality as a PD and on-air host includes trying to see the other person’s side. “I don’t like people trying to convince me of something I don’t believe,” he said. “At the same time, I respect what they believe. I’m going to assume a person has put some thought into their beliefs. If I didn’t do that, I wouldn’t have a relationship with anybody.”
Covid did a lot of nasty things, including kill a pretty cool podcast Lee had going. It was called Minnesota Beercast.
“I started that show because I witnessed all the beer taprooms popping up just about everywhere,” Lee said. “We’d do remotes from the brewery. We’d talk almost exclusively about beer. Sometimes the brewing process. Other times we talked about food, wine, and spirits.”
What’s the future hold for Justice & Drew?
“We don’t talk about the future a lot,” Lee said. “I’d say five years ago; my big dream would have been syndication, to be distributed more widely.”
He said that goal has dwindled a bit over the past couple of years. However, with today’s technology, he can be heard almost anywhere. “We’ve got listeners all over the country, from New York to California,” Lee said. “I find that amazing. Here we are, this little Minnesota-centric show growing an audience at the national level. I’m excited about where we’re going organically. People seem to be gravitating to our content, telling friends about it. I want to see how far we can take this fun little morning show.”