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Meet The Podcasters: Bonnie Bernstein, Walk Swiftly Productions

“Only the client knows what the client wants. Being proactive and creative and being as much of a visionary as you can in these pitch meetings is equally important to listening.”

Demetri Ravanos



When you hear the name Bonnie Bernstein, chances are you think of one of the broadcasting world’s great sports reporters. Whether it was her work on the sideline, filling in for Dan Patrick or writing, Bonnie made a name for herself with great interviews informed by serious research.

But that is just a chapter of Bonnie’s professional life. She is still interested in telling stories. Now though, she is doing it for herself and her clients with Walk Swiftly Productions. She is working with leagues and companies to figure out the best way to tell their stories and reach their audiences in the digital space.

She has created content for the XFL, ESPN and CMT. Her highest profile project is She Got Game: Inspiring Women Inspired by Sports, a collaboration with Audible. She was also recently added to the speaker lineup for the 2024 BSM Summit in New York City.

In our conversation, Bonnie told me what made her decide to pursue a different kind of storytelling, how her life on the sidelines helps her in pitch meetings, and so much more.

Demetri Ravanos: You are a reporter by trade – both at games and in newsrooms. How has the rise of online content changed how you can tell stories?

Bonnie Bernstein: When I started coming to the realization that the best way for me to bring some of my creative concepts to life would probably require me stepping out of the network/corporate America structure, that was right around the time that we were getting an inkling that digital content was the future. Remember back then, it wasn’t even called digital yet. We were still calling it “new media.” For some reason, an alarm went off in my head that said, “This is not just some sort of fad. Digital content is something that is going to continue to grow.” Given the volatility of the broadcast industry in general, I just really thought in order for me to develop some semblance of security in our business, I had to learn about it, and the way I ultimately decided to learn required me leaving network life and taking an opportunity with Silver Chalice, Jerry Reinsdorf’s Digital Media Company.

They had initially come to me about being the “face” of one of their digital networks called Campus Insiders, which I really appreciated. My mindset, however, was starting to shift toward figuring out how I could create a strong foundation to dive into entrepreneurship. I’d actually considered leaving the industry and going to business school to cultivate the skill set that, back then, just wasn’t part of what talent did or who we were at the time. It’s much different now.

When Silver Chalice came to me with this opportunity, I said, “Would you be open to creating a hybrid opportunity where, yes, we can leverage my experiences on air talent to front your college football show; to front your college basketball show, but can I also have an opportunity to delve into all of the verticals of the industry? That is something that I haven’t yet been exposed to, to help me build that necessary foundation to start my own company.”

That’s what ultimately led to my appointment as VP of Content and Brand Development for Campus Insiders. It’s important to understand the why behind that. TV is not digital – the way it’s created; the way it’s sold; the way it’s marketed; the importance of the social media piece and what was becoming really popular at the time, which is branded content. So my job with Campus Insiders gave me a lens into all of those different areas that helped me feel secure in starting my own company.

Walk Swiftly Productions isn’t a digital content-only production company. It’s whatever it is that the client calls for, but to your point, because we are seeing a huge surge in the amount of digital content. And what’s important is how the gap in the CPM between linear and digital is starting to close. That’s another indicator that digital content is here to stay.

When I am talking to potential clients about concepts I’m making out, first and foremost, I need to understand, “Where do you want to be?” When I’m having conversations with media buyers, “Do you want to be more in the linear space? Do you want to diversify that spend?” And that’s what I’m starting to hear a lot of, Demetri. I’m starting to hear a lot of, “We’re maxed out on our linear spend. We want to diversify. We want to be dipping our toe into digital and social.” There’s a lot of intrigue about the audio space, which gives me a lot of confidence that I’m in the right place.

DR: Let’s talk about audio specifically. Podcasting isn’t “the next big thing” anymore. For a whole generation of listeners, it is the only thing. I’ve had a theory for about 10 years now I would love to hear your take on.

Podcasting has opened up a whole new generation of potential listeners to the same content on broadcast. Sure, it is competition, but it has also taught people that spoken word content, and thus talk radio, doesn’t have to be just for mid-50s white guys anymore.

BB: Well, I think there’s a couple of different elements to it. Podcasting specifically is very appealing, not just to younger demographics, but older demographics just by virtue of the fact that people are busy and podcasts are on demand.

To me, it’s kind of mandatory that radio shows all need to have a podcast version because people don’t necessarily do appointment listening unless they are driving to work and that is how they are spending that time. It’s important to keep in mind that fewer people are driving to work now though, because we still live in a remote/hybrid workforce environment.

The other thing about podcasting is that if you are an advertiser; if you are looking for more bang for your buck, the research is telling us that podcast advertising is extraordinarily effective, even more effective than advertising in linear, on radio shows and in another spaces. Why? Because people who are downloading podcasts are making a commitment to listening to that content. Part of that commitment comes from not just the content, the nature of the content itself, but because there is a trust in the host. And when you are creating that connectivity – that level of trust between a listener and a host – if a host is doing an organic and authentic brand read, they are more likely to trust that that host testimonial has a value which converts to sales in a really powerful way.

DR: With Walk Swiftly Productions, you’re doing a lot of collaborative content. Can you tell me about the process? How much is it about you and another company working together and building out whatever sort of creative product their name and their branding is going to be on versus how much of it is them coming in and saying, “This is what we want created. We think you are the person to do it”?

BB: The answer is yes. It really is, and any entrepreneur, particularly in this space, will tell you that malleability is key. You may have an idea in your head, but you have to be open to what the potential client wants.

That potential client could be a network. It can be a brand. So you want to come to the table with a concept in your head, a vision of what it looks like, how it could be executed, and what the distribution strategy is, but at the end of the day, the most valuable questions you can ask in those meetings are, “What are your pain points?” “What do you want to do?” “Who do you want to reach?” “How do you want to reach them?” and then, “How can I help you do that?”

If you’re selling them the right way, you’re almost reverse engineering what the opportunity looks like. The client will give you the answers to the test if you ask the right questions. I will always come to the table with a fully fleshed out idea. I will share that idea. I will share the pitch deck and constantly be reinforcing throughout that conversation asking, “What resonates with you? This is all malleable. It’s really based on what your goals are.” Then ultimately, we craft the opportunity. So it’s sharing the initial pitch deck, having the initial conversation, asking what’s important to them, and then coming back with a formal pitch.

DR: What has the learning curve been for you in terms of how or what you are creating for companies like this? For instance, that XFL series you did. I don’t know if you would call it long-form content, because obviously there were a number of stories involved, but overall, the series is the story of the season, right? So in that way, it is kind of a long-form thing. So what has sort of been some of the trial and error that you’ve gone through as you look for the right way to present each of these projects?

BB: I think the most important thing I’ve learned is that you have to ask questions. When I go into pitch meetings, I would prepare the same way I would prepare for a game. I would read as many articles as I could; I would put together a whole pad full of notes; I would interview players and coaches and GM and owners, and that was my preparation. So by the time we kicked off an NFL game or we kicked off an NCAA basketball game, I pretty much knew everything I had to. And of course, there’s the element of reacting to what’s going on in real time, but I had all the storylines in my head and on my pad.

When I initially started pitching, I would do all that same research. I would have a whole pad full of notes or a digital file full of notes, and I would go into meetings thinking I know what the client wants.

What I’ve learned over time is only the client knows what the client wants. Being proactive and creative and being as much of a visionary as you can in these pitch meetings is equally important to listening. I think that has been the biggest lesson I’ve learned, and it’s proven to be very fruitful because once you have these conversations and understand what the client wants, then you can craft an opportunity and put yourself in a stronger position to get that deal across the finish line.

DR: I want to wrap up by talking about the intersection of your new professional life and your old professional life. I look across the landscape of sports podcasts and whether it is yourself, Michele Tafoya, what Charissa Thompson and Erin Andrews are doing together, Tom Luganbill, a lot of former sideline reporters have podcasts. I wonder if the appeal is about the opportunity to have a little more time to tell the story, or do you think there’s even any connective tissue at all?

BB: I’m not so sure it’s as much about connective tissue between former sideline reporters who’ve started to do podcasts as much as it is the audio space affords you more time to offer cohesive thoughts and have more meaningful conversations. The inherent nature of TV, unless you’re doing one of those TV shows that’s also a radio show, is that your time is limited. We are conditioned to speak in 15-second snippets, which on the one hand is really good because it teaches you; it forces you to learn how to be clear and concise in a way that immediately resonates with a viewer and a listener.

That’s always been the biggest difference between live broadcast and print or digital is in a print or digital scenario, you can be as complex with your sentence structure as you want. Anybody can go back and read it two, three, four times. In order for you to be an effective broadcaster, you only get one shot in a live environment.

At the end of the day, particularly when you’ve been in the industry as long as I’ve been – we’re on 30 years now – I love to be able to not only share about what’s going on topically in real time, but the more meaningful aspect of that is adding context and perspective that has come from spending 30 years in the industry. That’s what creates really rich, meaningful conversation that incites engagement. It’s just hard to do that in 15-second snippets. I wouldn’t change anything in my career, but it is one of the things that I love the most about the audio space.

To learn more about Point-To-Point Marketing’s Podcast and Broadcast Audience Development Marketing strategies, contact Tim Bronsil at [email protected] or 513-702-5072.

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Jen Lada Has Built a Multiplatform Presence at ESPN

“I always say my job is to make the viewer care about somebody and root for somebody that they might ordinarily not root for or care about.”

Derek Futterman



Jen Lada
Courtesy: Phil Ellsworth, ESPN Images

When Jen Lada appeared on Around the Horn earlier in the month, she became the 58th panelist to be part of the program since its launch in 2002. Facing off against three other panelists from around the country, she garnered a victory in her on-air debut and elicited plaudits from her colleagues. Throughout the program, Lada demonstrated her deft sports knowledge and nuanced opinions that have crafted her into a venerated, skilled reporter at the network.

Although she had appeared on many ESPN programs previously, Around the Horn represented a show to which she wanted to contribute for many years. In fact, she has memories of watching the show just out of Marquette University and remarking about its brilliance and ingenuity.

Utilizing reporters with comprehensive knowledge of various sports who have chronicled several events, the show provides them an opportunity to give their opinions on issues and engage in debate with their contemporaries. Lada earned a spot on the show by being persistent, continuing to express her proficiency in commentary and sports discussion. The journey to arrive at this stage of her career, through which she has realized high-level assignments and a presence both at the local and national level, required adaptability and fortitude, and she continues to never take opportunities for granted.

“It’s great that I won, but it just sets the bar really high for the next time I go out there, which is not something I’m afraid of,” Lada said. “I love a challenge, and I love proving to myself that I can keep trying new things and doing new things well, and I hope that if people see me as some sort of example in the industry, that that’s what they walk away with.”

The approach adopted by Lada within her multifarious career ventures is to develop and maintain versatility, always innovating within her approach to content. As she looks to build off her initial victory on Around the Horn, she aims to be more compendious in her discourse and applying a more succinct approach. Making the adjustment in order to deliver compelling, distinctive points quickly differs from her other work, but it is all ultimately centered on sports.

While studying at Marquette University, she observed her classmates having a conversation about the men’s basketball team and what had happened in a recent game. Lada, who at the time was dating a player on the team and cheerleading at games, began to give her thoughts and was subsequently asked if she had ever considered sportscasting.

“I didn’t know that women could be sportscasters,” Lada said. “It wasn’t on my radar as a real career that women held because there were so few of them at the time doing it, and so once I realized that that was something I could do, then I kind of turned all my attention to, ‘Well, how do I make this happen?’”

As Lada began to complete internships and navigate through the media industry, she learned to develop a thick skin and refined her conduct. Out of school, she had completed a year of a non-paid sports internship and was waitressing on the side to pay the bills. The first interview she took for a job at a television station in a top-10 market ended with her being sexually harassed. It was a jarring experience that disappointed Lada because of her propensity to give people the benefit of the doubt, and it also forced her to evaluate her own disposition.

“I think it’s only natural that you wonder how you contributed to the circumstance or what you could have done differently to maybe not put yourself in that space,” Lada said, “but I was very lucky that when I told my family about what had occurred, they very quickly knocked any notion of that out of my head.”

In navigating the industry with good intentions, Lada recognized that it is not her fault if other people fail at treating others professionally and create a misogynistic work environment. Receiving the lesson early in her career has made her more aware of the people to avoid, and she remains wary of advice given to women in the industry that they should just be nice. Lada was recently on a panel where someone advised a broadcast class that being nice would result in things working out for them in the future.

“I felt myself cringing internally because I don’t think that that is a luxury women are afforded,” Lada said. “I don’t think – maybe now is different, but when I was coming up, and I’ve been doing this for more than 20 years, there were people who preyed on niceness. And so the way that I would tweak that is to be professional; to carry yourself in a professional manner and recognize that sometimes being ‘traditionally nice’ puts a target on your back to be mistreated, and the best thing you can do is alert those people who would see you as a target that you’re not going to fall victim to that or you refuse to be victim to that.”

Lada joined ESPN in 2015 where she was hired to contribute to Colin Cowherd’s radio program. When Cowherd left the network and joined FOX Sports on a full-time basis, she started co-hosting a new, national program alongside Jorge Sedano. The show, however, had an evanescent run and left her feeling as if she had failed.

It took her a full year to recognize that she had been involved in a series of circumstances and decided to enact the necessary change, asking producers for advice and attending seminars. One of these was an interviewing course hosted by journalist John Sawatsky where he synthesized the art of the craft. Akin to when she was in college, she overheard in passing that the network needed more women in the features space.

“I was fortunate enough to have done a lot of features during my time in Milwaukee because we had a 9 p.m. newscast that required a local sports feature every night of the week, so between our three-person department, we had to fill that timeslot,” Lada said. “I had done a lot of lengthy sports features in Milwaukee [and] had a good foundation of what that job required.”

The meeting led to Lada doing features on an interim basis at the network and later granted her a spot on College GameDay, where she works as its features reporter. Lada presents stories every week to the audience that go beyond the gameplay and divulge a bigger picture.

“I always say my job is to make the viewer care about somebody and root for somebody that they might ordinarily not root for or care about,” Lada said. “One of the things that has occurred to me over the last few years is just what a skill is required to do that job well because not only are you preparing questions to ensure that you have all of the details and information, you’re also gathering perspective on what they’ve been through – the adversity and the situation that has led them to where they are now.”

Lada recently found herself in a high school classroom at 8 a.m. sitting with other students taking the ACT standardized test. She had to complete the exam as punishment for finishing last in fantasy football at ESPN Milwaukee this past season. After four hours, Lada emerged from the school and revealed her score this past week on the Jen, Gabe, and Chewy morning show. Hosting the local program alongside Gabe Neitzel and Mark Chmura, she has established chemistry over almost four years in the three-person format discussing hyperlocal topics.

“I try to be conversational,” Lada said. “We don’t lean on stats – obviously, we want to be accurate, and we want to be, again, fair to the subjects we’re talking about, but we try to also just be friends who are talking about what’s going on on any given day on the Milwaukee [and] Wisconsin sports scene.”

In balancing a variety of different roles, Lada has tried to master everything that she is doing, refraining from being content with her abilities. Although working in local radio regularly has been a newer role for her, she has grown into the job and has co-hosts who understand the subject matter and allow her to utilize her strengths.

“I just want to keep learning,” Lada said. “I’m not satisfied with what I’ve done, [and] I’m not complacent about the skills I have. I’m always interested in adding more jobs to the résumé, and I think that in this industry, you’re rewarded for versatility.”

Once College GameDay commences, Lada adds the responsibility of feature reporting on that program to her schedule and continues making appearances across additional ESPN programming. Lada hosted the Friday edition of College Football Live last season and has also filled in as a host on shows such as First Take and SportsCenter. Moreover, she continues to complete projects for SC Featured and is working on a documentary for E:60 scheduled to premiere later in the summer. 

Lada aims to keep showcasing her indefatigable work ethic and passion for the craft without slowing down. Whether it is hosting a podcast, taking part in more panels or writing essays, she is open to exploring new forms of disseminating stories.

“I have a lot of knowledge and experience rattling around my brain, [and] I think the next iteration is figuring out a way to continue passing those experiences on to the next generation.” Lada said. “I don’t ever want to gatekeep the secrets of success – I think that’s selfish – so as I continue to do the media work, I think the next phase for me is figuring out how to pass a lot of these lessons on to future broadcasting generations.”

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Local Radio Advertisers Can Become Experts with Hosted Shows and Interviews

Overall, local radio interviews and talk shows can be a strategic and effective way for a local expert to enhance their business, build their reputation, and connect with the community.

Jeff Caves



Photo of people talking on the radio

When looking for that extra edge for local radio advertisers, packaging radio commercials with an “expert” client-hosted talk show or interviews on your local shows or newscasts can be a game-changer. This strategy can build long-term business relationships with suitable clients, such as lawyers, business accountants, agents, psychologists, or sports handicappers. These professionals can provide valuable editorial contributions to sports and news stations. Of course, the expert must have good communication skills, be comfortable speaking their mind, and be ready to be the face of the business.

The radio commercials can tout the expertise the person has and give a call to action for listeners to move on. You can often find these experts on social media writing blogs or doing a series of vignettes about their business. For these types of clients, engaging in local radio news interviews or hosting a 1-2 hour talk show can enjoy several advantages:

Visibility and Brand Recognition

Visibility and Brand Recognition: Regular appearances on local radio help the expert become a well-known figure in the community. This visibility can lead to increased recognition and brand awareness and is a much faster track than just blogging on social media. Attorney Bill Handel and his ” Handel on the Law” show have created a directory business for Handel.

Public Trust and Credibility

By sharing their expertise and providing timely insights, the expert can build trust and establish credibility with the audience. Being perceived as an expert can enhance any client’s reputation and create top-of-mind awareness needed to lead business categories.

Client Acquisition

Listeners impressed by the expert’s knowledge and demeanor may seek their services. This exposure can lead to new clients who might not have been reached through other forms of advertising and give credibility to the expert who uses social media.

Community Engagement

Engaging with the local community through radio shows helps experts connect with potential clients more personally. This can foster a sense of community and loyalty. Question and answer segments can lead to deeper connections.

Educational Outreach

The expert can educate the audience on various issues, which can empower the audience. An informed audience is more likely to recognize when they need the expert’s assistance and whom to contact.

Stand Out in a Crowd

Stand out in a crowd: Being active on local radio can set the expert apart from competitors who may not use local radio. Often, the local shows or interview segments are exclusive to the expert.

Immediate Audience Feedback

Interacting with the audience through call-ins or live questions provides immediate feedback and allows the expert to address common concerns directly in real-time. The expert can be of service NOW.

Professional Development

Regularly discussing current topics can keep the expert sharp on trends and issues, contributing to their ongoing professional development.


Local radio stations often have a vast network of listeners and other professionals. This can open doors to new professional relationships and opportunities for collaboration. The station also provides a loyal audience who typically don’t follow the expert on social media. But they may start to after hearing the expert.

Overall, local radio interviews and talk shows can be a strategic and effective way for a local expert to enhance their business, build their reputation, and connect with the community.

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‘We Need To Talk’ is Insightful, Intelligent Conversation on CBS Sports Network

The show is not going to be a ratings giant like ESPN’s First Take or offer the decibel level of commentary on FS1’s First Things First, but it is a necessary and unique slice of sports television.

John Molori



A photo of the women who host We Need to Talk on CBS Sports Network
Photo Courtesy: CBS Sports Network

CBS Sports Network’s ‘We Need To Talk‘ features a rotating roundtable of female sportscasters offering their views on a variety of topics in sports. The premise is important. Female voices in sports need to be heard. They bring perspective, weighty conversation, and thoughtfulness to each discussion.

Over the past few years, women have made major strides in being heard and seen in sports media whether it is hosting, commentary, reporting or play-by-play. This is a good trend, but We Need To Talk is about more than just female talking heads. It’s about insight, depth, and needed attention to athletes and sports that do not bask in the mainstream limelight.

This particular episode featured host AJ Ross joined by Summer Sanders, Katrina Adams, and Renee Montgomery. It was an eclectic and accomplished group with Ross, an experienced and versatile reporter, Sanders, the erstwhile U.S. Swimming star and a broadcast veteran, Montgomery, the former WNBA star, activist, and co-owner of the WNBA’s Atlanta Dream, and Adams, former tennis player, CEO of the United States Tennis Association, and chair of the US Open.

Montgomery got the conversation going looking back on the Celtics winning the NBA Championship. She also made a telling comparison between the Celtics-Lakers rivalry, renewed in the 1980s with Larry Bird and Magic Johnson, and compared it to the current WNBA rivalry between the Indiana Fever and Chicago Sky with Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese. It’s a valid comparison, and Montgomery brought it to life effectively.

The WNBA was up next with Montgomery talking about Cameron Brink, the LA Sparks’ rookie who is making a splash not only on the court, but on the social media and fashion scenes as well.

It should be noted that this episode of We Need To Talk was taped before Brink suffered a season ending torn ACL, but Montgomery’s point was clear. It is not only important to be a great player. Today’s athletes also need to use multimedia platforms to raise their profiles.

Adams segued into a discussion on Wimbledon and No. 2 ranked Coco Gauff. It was good to hear some tennis talk on the airwaves, but this is a hallmark of We Need To Talk. The show makes it a point to move beyond the front-page stories and hit angles and areas that do not get much coverage.

These ladies are not afraid to get in each other’s grills as well. Sanders actually interrupted Adams to start a discussion about the upcoming Paris Olympics, but Adams would not relent and moved forward to an analysis of 2023 Wimbledon men’s singles winner Carlos Alcaraz.

The variety of sports continued with Ross starting a discussion about US track star Sha’Carri Richardson. I’ve been a fan of Ross for a long time. She does an expert job of mixing in her own commentary, while making sure all of the panelists on We Need To Talk get their due time. She’s also multitalented, seamlessly moving from reporter to host to debater.

We Need To Talk takes its roots in diversity with an all-female cast, but there is a deeper variety within the makeup of the cast. Sanders is a longtime veteran of sports, sports broadcasting, and entertainment. Ross is in the prime of her journalistic career. Adams brings perspective as an athlete, administrator, and leader, and Montgomery offers a fresh and contemporary style with her commentary.

Block 2 of the show featured Montgomery and Ross interviewing Naomi Girma of the San Diego Wave women’s professional soccer team. Girma was named 2023 US Soccer Women’s Player of the Year, the first defender to ever win that award. This is what We Need To Talk offers those who watch the show. It is almost like a smaller scale, studio version of the classic Wide World of Sports on ABC, “spanning the globe to bring you the constant variety of sport.”

The interview was managed well with Ross asking meaningful questions and Montgomery enthusiastically following up with her thoughts and input. This edition of the program also featured a wonderfully produced feature story on USC basketball player Aaliyah Gayles.

The talented Trojan hoopster was on the fast track to basketball stardom when, in April 2022, she was shot at a house party in Las Vegas. Gayles required two emergency surgeries to save her life.

The pace, video, and sound bites in the package were equal parts frightening, sobering, and uplifting. Gayles literally had to learn how to walk again as the feature focused on her rehabilitation and eventual return to the USC lineup.

Coming back from a break, the panel engaged in a great discussion on the talent link between collegiate and US Olympic athletes. A graphic showed that 75% of Team USA athletes and 82% of United States medalists played an NCAA sport.

As the discussion expanded, Montgomery talked about the fact that in order to enter the WNBA, players have to complete four years of college or be of the age of someone who has completed four years of college. I actually did not know that. We Need To Talk passes my personal litmus test for important sports television, namely, it tells me something I don’t already know.

Bringing still another sport and recognizable female athlete into the fold, Dara Torres joined the show next for an interview. The 12-time Olympic swimming medalist talked about her new role as head coach of the Boston College men’s and women’s swim and dive teams. Sanders asked a solid question about how, as a world-class athlete, Torres will manage her expectations of the BC athletes.

 As sports continues to meld with social issues, so too does the subject matter on We Need To Talk. Ross introduced a segment on the National Gay Flag Football League. Again, kudos go to the show’s production team for a slick and enlightening feature story. Praise should also go to the program itself for expanding the boundaries of sports and opening up a whole new world of knowledge for viewers.

Following the feature story, Montgomery and Adams made a point that sports unite people and bring diverse groups and personalities together as one. Montgomery is a fast-developing on-air talent. Her wit, energy, and knowledge go far beyond the basketball court making her a rising star in sports media.

The program continued to bring sports and life together by connecting the June celebrations of Pride Month and Father’s Day with an emotional poem written by renowned DJ Zeke Thomas, the son of NBA Hall of Famer Isiah Thomas. This was part of the We Need to Listen segment of the program.

Let’s keep it real. We Need To Talk is not going to be a ratings giant like ESPN’s First Take or offer the decibel level of commentary on FS1’s First Things First, but it is a necessary and unique slice of sports television.

The show consistently provides uncommon subject matter with an inimitable approach and tenor. Check it out when you get a chance and bring an open mind and a joy of sports. They need to talk, and we all need to hear them talk.

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